Curse

LifeInfusion · Nov 19, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Whining doesn't help. Grab snare+ weak/blind/miss hex and some armor ignoring damage.

Zinger314 · Nov 19, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Gates of Madness was designed as an idiot detector.

From what I can tell from this topic, it appears to have worked.

I'm tempted to write a "Gates of Madness" soap opera...

Doomlord_Slayermann · Nov 19, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I'm tempted to write a "Gates of Madness" soap opera...

That would be awesome.

I've made this comment in the other threads, and I'll make it again. The problem is that the rest of the game is too easy and lets bad players get to the part that finally kicks their asses. The whole game should be this hard, requiring you to think on your feet and plan in advance in order to have any success. I might actually do more PvE then.

Some Guru Named Kai · Nov 19, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by justadude

Please refer to the many, many, many player who still have not gotten in a good group to beat it yet and to the many, many, many players spending up to 10 days on this mission. Also refer to the many, many, many players who have beat the mission only to feel, not accomplishment, but annoyance at the poor mission design.

I would also like to refer to the fact that sometimes things are not challenging, but annoying. I really know how to run a group through the mission up until Shiro +10 moral boost every time. It became second nature shutting down the portals due to the many times Shiro wiped the more often than not good parties I was in. Putting such a buffed Shiro (what was with the Lich anyway?) at the end made the entire thing annoying because of the time invested to face such, well, impossible odds...

Now, running over a bridge to face impossible odds is alright, but it is not alright after 30 minutes of mission. That is flawed design.

And in closing I would like to refer to the fact that Abaddon is a mere after thought. Shiro is the boss of Nightfall or did Abaddon cause you more trouble? ...now I am referring to you...

If you don't know what I'm talking about, go look at all the "Shiro's too tough for me whine whine whine" and I can guarantee there's the same amount of people, if not more, in those topics able to tell you how to beat it and have beaten it themselves. Hell, just in this topic there's already proof of that.

If it was a poor mission design, then no one will be able to beat it, yet we see many primeval armor throughout Elona which proves that it is able to be beaten. So please, before you blame everyone else for your failures, take a look at yourself and improve. If one way doesn't work, the common sense thing to do is to change tactics. If you're new to Guild Wars, there's no one single way to beat everything.

As for unable to set up parties and whatnot, that's not new and isn't the fault of the mission. Nightfall is considerably new in terms of near-end-game missions.

Instead of nerfing Gates of Maddness, Anet should focus on buffering Abaddon to make him harder. People who roll over in defeat, and cry for mercy are pathetic, even more pathetic when there's so many others giving you the knowledge on how to beat such mission. Anet should have placed this mission at the end of Istani island, before entering mainland, that way people who aren't failures like us, can rake in the profit from greens this weekend.

fenix · Nov 19, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

I agree with Some Guru, Abaddon should be buffed. That mission is much too easy, it should be ridiculously hard, like instead of the monsters it spawns (name is lost on me atm), it should spawn Shiro/Lich and some Margonites or something. Gates of Madness was fun, isn't at all hard with an organised team, or one that actually know how to play Guild Wars.

Antheus · Nov 19, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by talon

it should spawn Shiro/Lich and some Margonites or something. Gates of Madness was fun, isn't at all hard with an organised team, or one that actually know how to play Guild Wars.

Last mission is highly skill dependant. Having two LoD/extinguish monks will allow just about any team to beat it. But without those, you're in a world of hurt. It also requires the strategy to take down the guardians in order, retreat when needed, and pay attention at claws.

The mission is quite demanding. Of course, for an organized team, nothing will ever be hard. Just like UW was intended to be hard, it's strictly solo/duo affair since launch.

This, in many cases, is definition of skill. No ammount of grind will get you past the mission until you actually know how to play. In a grind game you'd get up to highest level, buy good gear, then set up combat macro and go for lunch.

Once you consider all of the content easy, you've mastered GW. That by itself is a reward.

Zehnchu · Nov 19, 2006, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some Guru Named Kai

If you don't know what I'm talking about, go look at all the "Shiro's too tough for me whine whine whine" and I can guarantee there's the same amount of people, if not more, in those topics able to tell you how to beat it and have beaten it themselves. Hell, just in this topic there's already proof of that.

If it was a poor mission design, then no one will be able to beat it, yet we see many primeval armor throughout Elona which proves that it is able to be beaten. So please, before you blame everyone else for your failures, take a look at yourself and improve. If one way doesn't work, the common sense thing to do is to change tactics. If you're new to Guild Wars, there's no one single way to beat everything.

As for unable to set up parties and whatnot, that's not new and isn't the fault of the mission. Nightfall is considerably new in terms of near-end-game missions.

Instead of nerfing Gates of Maddness, Anet should focus on buffering Abaddon to make him harder. People who roll over in defeat, and cry for mercy are pathetic, even more pathetic when there's so many others giving you the knowledge on how to beat such mission. Anet should have placed this mission at the end of Istani island, before entering mainland, that way people who aren't failures like us, can rake in the profit from greens this weekend.

Funny how I see this argument all the time, yet I have to wonder how the elite’s attitudes egos have gone threw the game with a full team in everything they do quest mission you get the point. Or how about running the same cookie cutter build because it make’s things easier, same goes for the cookie cutter builds for hero’s. Another words you only chose how challenging something should be yet you chose to run the same builds over and over that other’s have come up with and you always go in a max group probably running the same set up for a team. You want a harder time getting things you want hey that’s your choice.

I’ll say it again, Item’s Armor, Titles don’t make you elite, just make’s you a want-a-be who can't think out side your own box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Gates of Madness was designed as an idiot detector.

From what I can tell from this topic, it appears to have worked.

I'm tempted to write a "Gates of Madness" soap opera...

This makes me laugh, you don't want to be left out yet you to leave out others.

Queenie · Nov 19, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Gates Of Madness was definetly a pain in the butt to do :|
We killed the Lich first and then attempted to kill Shiro, we got owned a few times. We ended up running to each of the gods alters and killing the magnorites while shiro tryed to kill us, we got all the boosts and then went backed and kicked his ass.

It was fun :3

Theus · Nov 19, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Yeah.Abbadon needs to be buffed.

All you need is mass condition removal for "Words of Madness"(I think thats the skill name..the skill that does 100+ damage and Dazed to all.)

All our group needed was a W/Mo Balanced Stance/Martyr warrior.

Curse You · Nov 19, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Well I'm amazed.

I did this mission, as well as the two before it (Gate of Pain & Ruins of Morah), IN ONE TRY.

What did I do? I altered MY build to suit the mission. When I heard that Shiro was in the mission, I knew that Spoil Victor would demolish him, and so I changed from my normal build, into a SV necro.

All you need to kill Shiro is a good tank, a good monk, and a SV nerco. The tank stands there, tanking damage while the monk heals him from a safe distance and the SV necro just keeps SV on Shiro.

I've always laughed at people who think that warriors should use superior runes in PvE, and use the rune to have 16 axe mastery, when they should be tanking.

Trakata · Nov 19, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Sometimes I wish someone would sticky a topic reading:

"Regardless of whether or not you think Gate of Madness is difficult, SHUT UP ABOUT IT."

It's old. 25% of people say "Nerf anet plz omg" and then the other 75% come into the topic, adding nothing constructive, saying "lolx nub can't beat shiro"

Shiro is difficult by comparison. You can't stand around and smack him to death like the rest of the game. I don't personally like the mission, because it's stupid to me. One moron bodyguard causes more grief than all 19 other missions combined, including an insane God and a powerful Lich. Yes, I've beaten it. Old stuff.

Anti-Melee works well, Protection Prayers are amazing against Shiro. I personally don't think conditions are viable, but some disagree. Just an attempt to help those stuck at Gate.

Karlos · Nov 19, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Well, the difference between Shiro in this mission and Shiro in Factions is that you do not have the Celestial Skills from Kuunavang to seal the deal. As such, many players fail to spend the short (but necessary) time to understand his skills and how to counter them.

You need stance breakers to kill his "Battle Scars", Battle Scars is his primary heal.

You need to set your hero monks to "Passive" mode to they don't wand him and have him shadow step to them.

You need to know that when he falls down to 25 or 20% helth he will invoke Impossible Odds. Impossible Odds will make him double strike EVERYONE nearby. If he has that on AND Battle Scars and he's standing in the midle of several players, he will damage heaps of people AND get healed for a lot of life.

As such, once he is near 25-30%, your party nees to make sure no one is in "Nearby" range (go to the Isle of the Nameless if you don't know how wide that is) and the tanks MUST get ready to break his Battle Scars as soon as he puts it on. This way the spike from Impossible Odds will be a lot less effective.

Finally, Impossible Odds transfers all conditions on him to nearby foes that he's striking. This is why it's not good to rely on blindness/weakness/Crippling in the last portion of the fight. Even though hexes last a LOT shorter on him than they usually do, they are the way to go at the end of the fight.

Hope this helps. I know people will try and post that they have done it without half these things, I am just explaining what is going on. I am sure people's creativity is endless.

Fluffyx · Nov 19, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

The mission at first gave us problems since we were not expecting the spawns in the part before the temple. The second time it was pretty easy, we beat it but I was dropped at the last part -_- . So after doing this mission 4 times and succeeding 3/4 times it can't be that hard.

Necro1:SS, faint, and other anti melee (curses)
Necro2:Spoil Victor and other anti melee (blood)
(Human)Dervish: AoE
Both henchie monks
Ele/me: running interupts
(Human)Mesmer: Ineptitude and other anti melee
Koss: Tanking and Grenths balance
Paragon henchie

You could do this with one human even, once you get the general idea of the mission its actually very easy.

strcpy · Nov 19, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Personally, I don't really care. I tried it once and had other problems (mainly, I had a really really bad team setup for this mission). As long as it is doable, I'll get it eventually and I do not mind the challenge.

However, one needs to also realize that there are different levels of players along with different skill level. For instance, I had no character any where close to capping Spoil Victor. For me, no big deal I'll just get a character far enough in Factions that I can cap it (I never liked Factions enough to play it that far. My necro is in the hatchery now, one mission away. Though I took time off for the greens and to get Vabbian armor - got my fill of both this weekend).

But what about the people without Factions? Or without Prophecies for SS? Or what about the unwanted classes if it needs a co-ordinated experienced team? I understand people wanting the challenge - again it's fine with me also, I'll get through it eventually and there is plenty of other things to do. It's not like I'm going to rage-quit or become more than slightly annoyed, but this game needs the "casual" player.

Requiring end/late game elites (that's OK if it requires ones from Nightfall, but requiring you to have nearly beaten the other two previous games also is bad game design for something intended to be standalone) to do any good is going to drive people away. While you may very well get your "noob filter" (or heaven forbid like a previous poster wanted - *all* missions to be hard for an experienced co-ordinated team), it will be the last as few will purchase again later.

The saving grace here is that a good portion of the "casual" gamers never get this far. Though I would say elite missions are where higher to high levels of difficulty needs to come in, not main story line. Of course, just having the one elite mission hurts the higher end player too.

It still needs to be realistic that a person owning only Nightfall is going to beat the mission with heroes and henchies. Based on what I have read about all the working tactics that is horribly untrue. As to how to fix that, dunno. A nerf to Shiro is easy, but I do not think that is exactly the right answer - I would suggest (amongst other things) having the lightbringer title play into it similar to a celestial skill in Factions. It will be interesting to see if Anet adjusts this mission in some way - for one thing we can whine and bicker all day long but without server logs it is impossible to tell if the failure rate is unacceptable.

fatmouse · Nov 19, 2006, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

I've always laughed at people who think that warriors should use superior runes in PvE, and use the rune to have 16 axe mastery, when they should be tanking.

If you're planning on going below 75 health you're not a very good tank to begin with are you?

Karlos · Nov 19, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

strcpy, if you read what I just posted, you will discover that you rpost is entirely unwarranted. I have beaten Shiro 4/4 times with an ele and a monk. Neither time did I have anyonw with Spoil Victor, nor will Spoil Victor save your butt when good old "Impossible Odds" kicks in.

All there is to it is understanding his strengths and weaknesses. You can break his stances with any of 3 professions, you can hex snare him with 2 professions and you can interrupt him with a bunch of ways. So, overall, your statement that the mission design requires Spoil Victor or SS or whatever is simply not true.

Chris616263 · Nov 19, 2006, 09:22 AM // 09:22

I've mentioned this before in another post but I doubt anybody paid attention. I beat Shiro with all AI backup and none of the skills mentioned as being "mandatory" (except for Wild Blow).

All I did was flag them far away enough when his health was low so that all my monks did was cast healing spells on me while I tanked Shiro all alone. He used IO solely on me, and I slowly beat him to death.

The hardest part of that mission was everything -but- Shiro and the Lich.

MisterB · Nov 19, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

I've always laughed at people who think that warriors should use superior runes in PvE, and use the rune to have 16 axe mastery, when they should be tanking.

Go ahead and laugh at my warrior, then. A warrior's job is to break faces with his weapon, and 16 weapon mastery does that best. Besides, real tanks have a giant cannon to do just that-to break the enemy's face. What you are talking about is a meat shield, that's the minion master's job, should you choose to bring one. Tanking is useless in open areas with the AI update, or haven't you played warrior?

Incidentally, Shiro broke my warrior's face in Factions. I just changed my build, took 3 Necro curses, and Wild Blow. Wasn't hard to hench him after that.

yo home boi · Nov 19, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Ive been stuck on this mission for 5days now, but now ive seen sum tips it should be a walk in the park ^^ Thx guys

garethporlest18 · Nov 19, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

This build takes it.

1 W/Mo with stances of some sort.
1 Mo/? with Restore Conditions, Aegis, Prot Spirit, Guardian
1 Mo/? with WoH, Orison maybe Breeze too
1 N/Rt since we have no rit hero, with Wanderlust, Shadowsong, Bloodsong, Pain, Shelter, Union and Displacement.
1 E/? With Searing Flames, Meteor Shower and whatever else
1 Mo/? with same build as Dunkoro's
1 N/Mo who would be a MM
1 whatever you want, we used Jin as a Broadhead, Apply poison, healing spring ranger.

We beat Shiro without anyone going below 50% health, I was getting conditions stacked on me though, but RC easily took care of that. But I flipped on stances when he IO and he hit me a few times but nothing to damaging with Shelter, PS, Shield of Abs and Union around. Plus he was only attacking me. The ele was another person btw. I suppose that's mostly just luck, but it's the second time I beat him easily. First time AI wasn't fixed though.

Also Abaddon is annoying as hell cause it takes 30 minutes. Make him harder but the mission shorter and that's okay.